128. From Coffee Table Pact to Global Impact: How Tom Livingston Built an 8-Figure Medical Device Company

What if your next business idea wasn’t about making millions—but helping just one person? In this episode, Tom Livingston, CEO of Rampart IC, shares how a late-night phone call from a friend sparked the idea for a life-saving medical device—and how that simple act of service grew into a globally distributed, 8-figure company. From sketching concepts on a napkin to testing a prototype during a secret cabin weekend, Tom’s journey is a masterclass in purpose-driven leadership, calculated risk, and building something that truly matters.

Whether you’re burning the midnight oil on your own big idea or still in the dreaming phase, this conversation is for you. Tom opens up about building the company while working full time, the coffee table pact that changed everything, and the power of building a team rooted in belief, not just ambition. This is a story of faith, uncertainty, and the quiet courage it takes to bet on what doesn’t exist—yet.

WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/tom-livingston-rampart-ic

Transcript

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Hi, Tom, welcome to the show. Hi Shanna, glad to be here. I am so honored to have this conversation. I get to have a lot of amazing conversations with entrepreneurs, but I feel like it's so special because your daughter Lauren works with my team and she is just honestly such a godsend in my life and on this team and she's just such a gift. So I will get emotional talking about Lauren. So it's really exciting to get to know Lauren's dad. So I'm excited you're here. Yeah, well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I'm doing a lot of it for Lauren. Obviously excited to share the story, but yeah, she was a godsend for us too. So, and now you've got me on the verge of tears before we ever even kick it off. So, but anyway, yeah, a lot of love for Lauren here, no doubt. But I'm looking forward to it, Shanna. I'm excited. I've heard a lot about you and what you do and excited to share my story if that helps in any way. Okay, I'm excited. Okay, well tell everybody what you do today. Kind of what your role, what your work looks like in this present moment. And then I want to take it back to a quick backstory of like how this all began. What you did before and how, so what you're doing now and then let's go to a backstory. Sure, yeah, absolutely. So today I am chief cook and bottle washer for a company by the name of Rampart IC. Some people call it CEO, right? But have been doing that. I was team member number one that went back to 2018. But in my role today, I lead a company that's, I guess it's eight figure company, growing. We sell direct in the US. We have 13 distributors across the globe. that represent about 60 countries that we currently sell into. We've got a team of about 30. And I lead all functions of that. And I'm just incredibly blessed to have a great team to help support the company that I get to work with. But it is a radiation protection device. And so we work in healthcare, specifically in what's called the cath lab, or the catheterization lab, which is where lot of radiation is used to do procedures. And so with that comes a lot of danger to radiation, but also a lot of danger to orthopedics as well, having to wear the heavy lead aprons. And so we sell this, we sell these device, this device, which is now going to a portfolio of devices, but we sell these devices all over the globe to help protect people. So it's a, it's a win-win. It's a great business, a great team, and we get to help people every day. How long has the company been in existence? Yeah, I think we formed the company Shannon in 2018 and I was a team member number one in the fall 2018. just past the anniversary date, November 1st was when we, when we kind of took that risk and kind of kicked that off. So yeah, so six years now. Yeah. It's crazy to think about it, honestly. member number one, what does that mean? It was not your idea. Or was it your idea? It was coach. my need and it certainly wasn't my idea in terms of the concept. So one of my best friends at the time, I got by the name of Dr. Bob Foster, who, it's a family business because Lauren, my youngest, married his youngest. And so there's a little bit of a family business there that happened after we started the business. So we tell people all the time it's not an arranged marriage as far as they know. That is a joke by the way for anybody else that hears that. But yeah, he had a need and he had an idea or a concept of an idea to say, hey, I'm about to lose my career. It's such an incredibly dark, tough time for him from a career perspective. And so. So I got the phone call going hey, I just need some help as a friend But I need some help as an engineer and as a patent guy and as a business guy and as maybe a business coach I don't know but I just need to get back in the lab. don't want to my career. So that's how it that's really how it all started that was Yeah Yeah, it was the injury was 2014. So it was a He had his second disc rupture again cumulative trauma from wearing these heavy lead aprons in a job and what he did. And he was one of the highest, probably the highest, interventional cardiologist in the state of Alabama at the time. So you can imagine the impact that him losing his career, inability to do those procedures had to his patients, to his practice, to the hospital where he served. mean, it was, it was devastating all the way around. he paralysis in his right leg, did not know if he would ever be able to get back into the lab again. So, so yeah, it was tough. So he reached out to you. tell me about your background. sound that you said, engineering, business, patent. Tell me about your background. Yeah, so I tell people all the time, right? I'm truly a jack of all trades, truly a master of none. you know, I get labeled as the engineer sometimes, and it's, it's probably unfair to engineers to label me as an engineer. In that, so I was an industrial engineer coming out of Mississippi State University, which is where Jeannie and I met. And, and so I was an engineer for about a year, and really gravitated towards team leadership, business leadership. manufacturing operations, kinds of things pretty quickly after that. And had some folks early on that saw that passion in me and wanted to develop me in that route. So was only an engineer for about a year until I got into team and business leadership. Yeah. And I think some of most, lot of people don't know about engineering and you can tell me, Tom, if this is true in your experience. But what I have learned is that with engineering, kind of go the engineer in practice route, like you're doing the engineering work or you go the management leadership route. It's not often, it's kind of one or the other in my husband's aerospace engineering by trade. So that was kind of the pass for him, but Um. my sister is an aerospace engineer. so dad's mechanical engineer. His twin brother's an electrical engineer. And I would say most of them certainly went what I would call the technical expert route, right? Truly for the majority of their career, we're working on engineering projects. But I think depending on where you are and where you go, I mean, think you can weave. that tapestry in and out of team and team leadership and project leadership versus being the engineer. And I'll tell you this, for most true engineers, and even me to a certain degree, once you're an engineer, it's hard to leave that thought process behind. so even from the business, it really is, and even from the business perspective, people, they laugh, right? Because I engineer. the business side of it, the finance side of it. know, if people ask about money, we may talk about that later, right? I take a very, very pragmatic engineering approach to business and to money, but as a result, it's really served, you that logic really served us well. And I talk about common sense a lot. Common sense in a world where common sense is a superpower. And I think that's, in many cases, what engineers bring. I know, love me an engineer. When your friend came to you and said, hey, will you help me? What happened next? Did you think it was going to be a device that was developed? Did you think, like, you were just gonna, what happened? Like, where did you go from there? Where did that engineering brain take you? Yeah, well, think in the probably in the early days, Shanna, I really felt like for again, somebody that I loved dearly, who was just in a, again, a tough spot like any of us would be at that point. I wasn't thinking engineering or device. I was just thinking love and support for a friend and, you know, somebody that I truly cared about and how are we going to, we're going to find a way, right, to get him back into the lab. And so the early days, Quite honestly, we're sitting at his dining room table with a vanity prayer napkin and a pencil, some tears, and some prayer. Quite honestly, I mean, that's really how this whole thing started. But I think from there, as we started saying, okay, here's a concept, here's what we're trying to accomplish, right? How do we put, I'll try not to get too technical, but how do we put as much attenuating material between the energy source that is dangerous and the team and where they're working and teach that team how to work in the shadow of protection, right? And so how do we begin to do that? And so we honestly, at that point, I mean, I've got a full time job, Bob's trying to heal to get back to at least being able to do clinical at that point or clinic at that point. We just didn't have a lot of extra time. And so we started looking for and engaging people in the Birmingham area, which is where we started up our business. to help us and fortunately just some fantastic people that were great, incredibly supportive, very excited about the idea were led to us, we were led to them and we worked with them for several years. One of the main people that was part of that process actually works for us full time now. But again, those relationships are deep and they go way back. And so that's where that engineering process led as much as anything was for the the engineering thoughts was it led to a process. How are we going to go about tackling this project and tackling this problem? So did you think, yeah, at what point did it become this is going to be a new, I don't know if you would call it a device, protective, like, where did you go through a lot of different iterations? mean, at what point were you like, this is a product we're developing. And then I'm also curious, like, how was all this funded? How did you, and when did you think this is a business? Yeah. answer the second question first because I think it's really important and it's a huge part of what I think got us off the ground and probably helped me to have resolve to get behind it as we talked about the funding and as I talked to Bob about, as we do this, this can get expensive. We don't know how expensive yet because we don't know what we're developing. And we don't know who all we're going to engage in doing that. You how do we do it? And, you know, Bob said, Hey, I'm going to fund it. And I said, Hey, I'm incredibly worried about that. Like what if at the end of the day, you spend X amount of dollars and a lot of money, right? We're talking six into seven figures, right? To get this device developed. And at the end of the day, it's not a business. All it does is get you back into the lab. And there's even that statement, by the way, there's a lot of naivety. on my part, not understanding Med Devise at that point, but he, mean, as serious as he could be, Shanna, he looked up and he said, then if I spend that and I get back in the lab and I get my career back, it's a great return on investment. And so at that point, it helped me to understand a number one, his resolve to solve the problem. But number two, how big potentially this problem in this business can be, right? And so as we look at this, you know, what we call the TAM, this total attainable market, you know, today. I mean, that's why it has the potential to be globally an $11 billion market, is because there's so many labs out there and so many people that are working, you know, in those conditions. So anyway, so that was the, I think that was the funding part. And so that was kind of the, I think that was a long answer to what I said was the easy one. So, and then what was the, there was the first question? yeah, I know this, I'm just, this is such, I'm so grateful you're here because I wonder how many people listening have an idea to solve a problem or there's something they're dealing with and it's a long journey. You you're developing something you don't even know what you're developing. You don't know what the cost is going to be. You don't know if it's gonna work. I'm just grateful that you're here to share the journey that you all have been through. And you're right, like going in. So my other question was, at what point did you realize this is a device and move forward with it? Like this is the solution, let's move forward. Like how did you get to that point? I'm sure it took years. We knew in 2014 as we're sketching this something out, mean literally just squares on a napkin. We knew it was a physical device then. We didn't know if it was a business at that point. We didn't know what the device looked like, what it was going to be made out of or anything like that. I would say we thought we had a We thought there was a solution in the market that Bob gravitated towards in 2015 as hospital bought for him. It didn't work. So 2016, he came back and said, Hey, we tried this. It didn't work, but I've learned some things from it. And so we, at that point, as we engaged an industrial designer, again, just, just the talent, right. It was brought to us, but an industrial designer in Birmingham and started explaining this concept and literally he would roll out Shanna butcher paper. across this big table and he would just start sketching. So what about this? Nope, that's not it. What about this? And so we began to have this incredibly creative, iterative, almost artistic approach to what was a device. But it was at that point, probably sometime in 2016, that we started seeing this. And again, remember, this is most of the time two nights a week from six to nine o'clock at night in an office somewhere, not at home. still working full time. Yeah. it's corn chips and salsa for dinner as we're working through this. And again, that guy was incredibly patient in meeting us where we were. That's something we talk about an awful lot. Our availability was in the evening at night. And so he was excited enough about it to be able to do that with us at that time. yeah. How long did it take you to come up with a prototype or an iteration of the device that Mr. Foster said will work? Probably one of the most exciting times for us, and it's curious, was spring of 2018. So we started really sketching this out. Let's just call it mid-2016. By the spring of 2018, so right at two years, maybe a little bit less than two years later, again, working at it part-time, I'm trying to figure some stuff out, we had a... I don't want to call it a prototype because it wasn't a prototype, but it was something that held these panels, these attenuating panels in a way that we thought made sense. We rented out a lab secretly in North Alabama somewhere. I mean, again, everything was, I was the master of non-disclosure agreements at that point. I wouldn't have any conversations with anybody without doing that. But we rented out lab. It was in secret. We went, we put this, device in place and it was a big weekend. was one of those weekends where as we brought in the physicists, as we brought in the engineers, as we were putting this device in and we started, you we call pressing the pedal, right, turning on the radiation. As we started pressing the pedal, it was either going to be the concept works and we felt like it would. I mean, it's common sense, but it was either going to work and something was going to happen after that. Or it wasn't, and we were going to fold up shop. And so it was a pretty scary weekend. And of course, we were at a cabin at a state park close by, and Jenny and I, my wife and I, and Bob and Donna, and we were all in the cabin together and talking through this as it was unfolding. So you can imagine the drama and the emotion. As they're doing the test, we're coming back. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, well, we're in the lab. Yeah, we're in the lab. We're going back to the cabin at night to share with Donna and Jenny how things are going. And I'm sure they were nervous as well. that weekend, we knew, hey, this will work. It's going to work. We've got something figured out. And the scary thing at that point was, had not put a lot of thought into it until after that weekend even. Yeah. Because you don't want to invest a ton of time, effort, energy, resources, emotion, if you don't know if the concept's even going to work. So we're two, over two years in, just figuring out this might work. Well, it will work, and trying to figure out the path from there. Okay, so many questions. Four years into your friend Bob's injuries, two years in to trying to find the solution after already discovering another solution didn't work. And you're, this is all working nights and weekends, eating chips and salsa for dinner. I mean, this is the entrepreneurial crazy that most people just don't understand, but like we're just driven by. a goal or a passion or wanting to find a solution. So was Bob like a long time friend of yours? You all were friends. A long time. We were certainly friends before that. we were friends, our families were friends. So we went to the same church, we lived in the same neighborhood. We taught Sunday school together. So my oldest daughter and his middle son dated and went to the same college. So they were all the kids were part of the same youth group. so there was, again, there was already a lot of connectivity. This took it to a whole other level. And then of course, Barnett and Thomas's, you know, that wedding took it to another level as well, right? But this certainly took it to another level because we're spending time talking to each other literally every single day, probably six to seven days a week. Yeah. OK, so that moment when you're like, this is going to work, what shifted? Were you like, we have to bring this to the masses. This is a business. Was it immediately like, I need to figure out how to price this thing? And I mean, you're probably going through like medical devices. I can't imagine what you have to get approved. I mean, so what happened when you're like, this is going to work? What next? the, can't imagine medical devices, there's some embarrassing moments there. Maybe we'll touch on that a little bit later. But, you know, for me, the next thought was, hey, we've got this concept and we've proven the concept, but we really didn't have an intuitive, elegant way, right, to move these panels in, move them out, adjust the panels as needed, those kinds of things. We were testing the configuration of the material. as much as anything else. So immediately my mind went to, so we know having panels hung in this way work. How do we begin to do that way that's intuitive, that's elegant, that works well and fits well in the cath lab that people want to work with? So that's, think, from an engineering perspective where we went next. What we started learning after that, Shanna, was that as we started, even that was a lot of work. And I remember sitting Bob and I sat down at coffee one day. I was kind of at a point with my full-time job that, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna take a risk, we got, now's probably the right time, right? It was a window in time. And it was probably a divine window, quite honestly, but it was a window in time. And I remember telling Bob that, we've either, this has either got to fail fast or it's got a, we got a make it work fast, right? Not a lot of funds, not a lot of windows in time, you know, those kinds of things. And so we, I could go back to Birmingham and show you the coffee table today, right? That we sat at and literally looked at each other and said, hey, we're going, we're all in. And I was in from a career perspective. and Bob was in financially at that point and was supporting that. And at that point, we had not done any fundraising. So there was no investment, no fundraising, which even to get it to that point without any fundraising is crazy in the med device world. Absolutely crazy. So fall of 2018, I transitioned to this full time. you know, all the stuff that you would imagine, right, for an entrepreneur in that. We were open nesters at the time, so it made it a little bit easier to take some of those risks. But from the fall of 2019 till the fall of, I'm sorry, till the fall of 2018 to the fall of 2019, we went from, we got a prototype to we now have a commercially viable device that we sold. to the first hospital in the fall of 2018. And you can imagine at that point setting ourselves up for what we thought was going to be this crazy, crazy, unbelievable year of 2020. And you can imagine what happened in 2020 with Med Devise. But in a year's time, we went from concept to commercially viable product in the Med Devise world completely unheard of. Completely, I mean, I can imagine. For you, were there, totally off script. Did you feel like you knew how to do this? mean, MedDevice wasn't your background. So were you using your knowledge, obviously, from what you've done to bring this to market? Or was it a lot of it you were figuring out as you went? mean, one year, I mean, that's incredible. All the above so I'll say this I think you know there's there's times You know I think if we look back on it if we knew everything that we were gonna have to go through we might not have done it So there was probably some confidence Arrogance on my part of hey, I know how to design stuff get stuff built. We'll figure this out I've always been the kind of a figure-it-out guy What I didn't know at that point was how much much I didn't know and that's probably one of the more embarrassing things there and again there's some there's some funny stories there but but I think at that point too remember we entered into this with a lot of tears and a lot of prayer and so we felt like this was we felt like this was a calling not just for Bob but for how many other people out there that were hurting and suffering for having people that were going to and so we didn't feel like we had much of a choice. Yes. quite honestly at that point we certainly from my perspective from a career perspective I'd burn the boats right and so yeah yeah absolutely it had to work so we had limited time limited resources you know and so it had to work and so I would I would think looking back over that period again we had some great people that were that were part of the project that were incredibly excited about being part of it that supported us in ways that I can't even begin to describe. But I would say that there was a little bit of some divine protection through that process that helped us get to where we needed to be as well. Okay, well you talk about just that first year, I would love to hear as the CEO, you were coming up with pricing, you were in charge of hiring, I mean, I'm sure it's collaborative, but like, I just want to hear that first year. How did you figure all of this out? How did you figure out how to price a device? How did you figure out the marketing of it? Did you know immediately that you were going to hospitals like, just kind of walk me through a couple of pointers of that first year, figuring out the pricing, what went well, what didn't, and then I want to, from there, move into like after that. Yeah. So the first year, so remember, I'm a math guy, right? So the business side of it, the pricing side of it, figuring out gross margins, those kinds of things, that's not hard for me. And really enjoy that, but it's also pretty easy. What was hard was saying, here's how we're going to structure this business. Here's how, from a commercial perspective, how we're going to sell this device. We truly thought... and that this was a device that was so, and we thought incorrectly by the way, but that was so intuitive and so easy to use that we would be creating these things up. And they're not inexpensive, right? I mean, we're talking about six figures, right? For a device that goes into a room, right? To protect the team. And so, but we truly thought that we were gonna be creating these up, having them delivered to the hospital. We would have some videos online. use it and you know and the team would unpack it and then watch the videos and learn how to use it. That's what we thought. That's what we did, right? I mean and so you quickly realize at some point that yeah well that's what we did but we've been thinking about it for five years and so as you think about injecting in that environment a relatively large expensive piece of equipment into what we call the workflow. of the cath lab with a team that's, it's already got an orchestrated dance. They know what they're doing, right? And incredibly gifted, skilled people, you know, working, doing just unbelievable stuff inside the body. Just incredibly naive on our part, right? And so we had it priced for, we'll create it up and we'll ship it to you. And there's some videos online. And so over, over a period of time, we ended up having to increase that price. I would say 40%. just to cover what now was gonna be a completely different commercial process. And that commercial process was that we have a clinical team and a sales team that's in the field that as we go to do demos of this product and we go to do launches and follow up continuing educations to these labs after we've sold it and launched the product, know, completely different business model, completely different structure. So the easy part was doing the math. I could put a map to the model. The hard part was coming up with the right model in terms of how this was working, because we were breaking paradigms. The 100-year-old paradigm of protecting people in the cath lab from radiation was the lead apron. That's the standard. That's our competition, if you will. And so, you know, again, in breaking that paradigm, we had no idea what lay ahead of us in terms of how much of a challenge that was going to be and what kind of team that would take. Yeah. The story is so amazing because I think it can be really intimidating to think about raising funds for your business. think it can be really intimidating for someone like me. It's intimidating to think about a six figure price tag, to think about these are big things. I think a lot, Tom, this is silly, but it's what I think about. My husband's an aerospace engineer. And for early on in his career, he wanted to design and build his own airplane. And I just, and that's not the path that he ended up going. And I think that was a lot of God's protection on our family. But I would see these airplanes in existence and flying people around. I'm like, how? Like my husband is very smart and he can do anything, but I'm just like, and it was really cool. Cause he used to say to me, Shanna, you don't start with like a Gulf stream. You start with something much smaller. You start small. And I feel like that's how I think about your business. You know, if I were to think you're selling a medical device that's saving a lot, mean, giving people back their careers, you're raising funds, you're doing big, big things. And I just am grateful that we get to break it down and hear you break it down. It's like it started with pieces of butcher paper and drawing concepts and you know, you just get started and you keep working towards it. And what would you say now post 2020, like how has the business grown and where do you see it going from here? Yeah. So at this point, we have hundreds of devices all over the world. And so that's exciting. And it has a disposable component to it too. So once somebody buys a device, our relationship's not over with them. So for every case they do with that device, there's a sterile drape that goes on it. So we're selling, providing that sterile drape. Again, for every single case it's on a great business model, but also a great way for us to stay connected to our customers. We have to stay connected to our customers because of that. Obviously, that's a huge part of the growth component as well. Hundreds of devices with this disposable component that are all over the planet. Again, just unbelievable stories. I'm going to share this one story with you just to connect it, hopefully. as a bridge to kind of where we are now and kind of what's coming up next, right? So there's a KOL, a key opinion leader. She's a rising star interventional cardiologist, not rising anymore, she is a star interventional cardiologist out of York, Pennsylvania, that's part of our medical advisory board. And her story is unbelievable. So it's very different from Bob's. Bob's was, I'm hurt, I'm injured, I gotta get back in the lab. hers was different. Young, felt called to be a mom, right? We talk about, know, we're made for works, right? That S is really important. We're not made to do one thing. We're made to do a lot of different things. But she was made to be a CTO operator. an interventional cardiologist that does some of the most difficult cases. Lots of radiation. lots of time in the lab, lots of time in a lead apron, but she was also made to be a mom and a wife. And it was really cool as we started talking to her and her story was, you know, that because of Rampart and the things that y'all are doing and the things that you're gonna be doing, I can do both and I can do both really, really well. So that's the fuel that makes us keep going. So at this point we've gone from being a one product device, which is as a CEO, when you put your head on the pillow at night, you've got one product. That's hard. All right. You're like, what if somebody outdesigned you? What if something happens with that product? know, whatever it may be. Um, you know, we're at, we're at a point now where we're launching, I think we've, um, our most recent conference, uh, we launched six, um, we had six products there. I think we launched three brand new products and, and our next big, um, It's our next big product which does a little bit some different things with some different cases and a little bit more sophistication with that product even than the first one You know, it's a re-en Dr. Davies in Pennsylvania. She's one of the matter of fact I think they're doing the eval on it this week and I was getting updates on how that was going, you know and those kinds of things and so What we're able to do now is to go from this one device that protects maybe in the majority of the cases that she does to Now we're iterating and designing and doing more products to where we can get probably close to 98, 99 % of the cases that she does. We can get her out of lead, much better levels of radiation protection, and allow her to have a tremendous amount of peace about being a mom and a wife and being there for decades for her family while she's also being there for decades for her patients. Mm-hmm. and her business team as well. So that's really what's next for us is how do we continue to evolve and iterate as a company with the momentum that we have now and the changing market that we have now to where we can provide multiple products, suites of solutions. And we talk a lot about meeting people where they are. It's no longer, here's the Rampart device, let us show you how to use the Rampart device. It has become, show us your cath lab and tell us the... Tell us the goals that you're trying to accomplish, the funds that you have, and allow us to bring in a suite of products to help you do that. Not only accomplish your work goals, but your personal goals and your life goals as well. So that's what's next. That is what is happening for us now, and that is what is next. With all of this, and this is again, totally off script, I imagine this isn't where you saw your future career going. With what you're doing now, what would you say has been the most rewarding part of getting to be a part of the growth of this company? And then what would you say has been the toughest part? Yeah, there's, you know, the good outweighs the tough part exponentially, right, at this point. So I'll say that whenever you get to lean into, A, what you're, what you feel like your calling is, right, and you're gifting, that's incredibly, that's incredibly rewarding. Right. And so, you know, we say an awful lot. Your calling is where your gifting and your burdens collide. Right. And I would say now, I think that again, what's really neat is that my burden has really become for those that are in the cath lab that are hurting or they're about to be hurting and they know it or they're exposed and they're dangerous or it's a dangerous situation for them. And the new folks that are going into the lab that deserve better protection. and deserve to be comfortable. They're saving people's lives and yet they're in harm's way. They are in harm's way doing it right now. And so to be able to be part of that as part of a company that, you know, incredibly high integrity, that's committed to doing it the right way with the right team and And the team that we have shown, the fact that I get to work with them every day is just incredibly fun, right? And incredibly humbling. So that's probably the good stuff. I would say the struggle is that I am so much a, if it's unsolved, it's gotta be solved today. If it's not done, I've gotta get it done today. So the biggest challenge out there for me quite honestly, it's me and kind of how I'm wired and working through that. And everybody that knows me, lives with me, loves me, knows that that's a journey that I'm on. And it's a balance. When we're called to do something, we don't often get to define the terms of how comfortable we are in that calling. We're not. We're called to go get something done. At the same time, we have to do that in a way that is healthy for us and it's appropriate. And again, the works that we're called to, the S is really important. I'm not just called to be the Rampart CEO and to help, you know, be part of a team that helps these people all over the world. I'm also called to be Lauren's dad and Hannah's dad and Jenny's husband and not getting lost, you know, I think in any of that. That's the biggest. Challenge I think for any of us that love what we do feel called to what we do feel passionate about it And just trying to figure that out and give yourself some grace as you navigate that process You know, that's I think that's the hardest part for me I want to ask about kind of that harmony before we go into a quick fire round, but I would like to ask have there ever been moments where you have felt not equipped for the task in front of you? And if so, how have you navigated that? Yeah. Yes, is to answer the question. Frequently, you put your head on your pillow at night and I think any of us that are completely honest with ourselves, the things that we're doing scare us and quite honestly, the things that we're doing all the scare us. No pressure, no diamonds, I think I've heard recently. I may have heard it on this podcast recently. no pressure no diamonds. I know NFL it ought to scare us a little bit. There ought to be things that we're doing that we don't feel completely equipped in doing. Because if we're completely equipped in doing everything that it takes to be successful, then where's the God thing in that? Where's the fun in that? And so absolutely, there's doubts. There's frequently... think there's doubts, I think in that process. And again, I think you handled that. There's so many different ways, and I'll stay out of the pulpit a little bit as we talk about this, but it's so important to go find that right team and to surround, bring people into the company that are part of the mission with you, that want to be part of that mission, that are diverse in terms of the skill sets and the perspectives that they bring. And again, I think that makes it a little bit easier when you put your head on the pillow at night. And I understand, I'm part of a business where we do get to do that. There's a lot of entrepreneurs out there that are one or two people, entrepreneurial businesses, and they don't have that luxury. And I really admire those one or two person teams that do that because that's really incredible and they've got to have an incredible support structure around, and it's an unpaid. support structure, right, versus my support structure. You know, thank goodness I'm able to pay him. So. What would you say is the best thing you have learned about money or growing a business? Yeah, this will shock you. Sarcasterics there a little bit, right? So pretty pragmatic in terms of how I approach money. so for me, money's a tool. It's a tool to help accomplish the mission. so whether that's business or in many cases even personal. And I think the big thing with money is once it becomes a measuring stick, then you're in trouble, right? And typically, know, typically bad things happen from that. And not that, and I want to make sure I'm clear in this, I don't think money's bad, but I do think money reveals the heart. you know, and so, and I think that's one of those lessons and one of those things that we talk about. And that's not just on the personal side, I think it's on the business side as well, right? When you're stressed because you don't have money, it reveals the heart, right? when your profits are great, right, your cash flow is great, it reveals the heart. And so I think that that's, I think that's from the money perspective, probably the biggest learning for me. that I like how you called it a measuring stick. And I think that's a really helpful. I hear a lot of people answer very similarly, like money is a tool, but I've never heard anybody called a measuring stick. And that's exactly, I think why I'm so passionate about what I do and building a business that fuels the life you want or accomplishes the mission that you are going after because I came from a background where it was a measuring stick. Mm-hmm. while I'm very achiever oriented and goal oriented, that never sat right with me. And I've never heard it termed that way. So that's, that's so interesting. That's going to stick with me in a world that asks you to do everything. Well, you're running a company, you have a lot on your shoulders. You're doing big things. You're going after a big mission. I'm sure there's some pressure there. I feel like pressure is all about how you carry it. So maybe you carry it well. how have you found harmony in being the dad you want to be and being the CEO you want to be and being the friend? Like are there one or two things that kind of keep you in check? Or is it working from home or quitting at this time or like how do you kind of maintain that harmony? Yeah, sometimes I don't. I mean, that's the, you know, I think sometimes that's the, that's the answer, right? And I think I said it earlier, you know, giving, giving grace to myself when I don't, you know, and it's not just as an entrepreneur, right? As a, as a guy that was working for entrepreneurs or investors in the past, you whatever, and having that pressure to A, be a great return on investment and provide a great return on investment, that may have even been more pressure for me, right, than currently what I'm doing. But what I'm learning to do, Shannon, a little bit, is to take what I call, we call it an EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System, what we call a clarity break. And listening to my mind and listening to my body a little bit more maybe than I have in the past and going, hey, it's... I'm really frustrated. need to stand up and I need to take Bell for a walk. I need to go shoot around escorting clays, whatever that may be. And I said it earlier, I struggle not getting stuff done. I'm incredibly driven. I want to get it done, but I'm learning now, trying to learn now. that sometimes getting it done and getting it done well, you gotta get some perspective and you gotta get some clarity, I think, in order to do that. so, again, listening to my body more. And fortunately, I have a wife that will also sit on the back porch with me sometimes and watch the sunset and go, hey, are you okay? Because you're not saying anything. Every conversation you're having is in your head right now. And I'm kind of being called out on that. So that's helpful too, and it also helps when one of your best friends is your business partner. And you can hold each other accountable to doing things the right way and maintaining some kind of semblance of work-life balance. And we talk about work-life balance, right? So work-life balance for me is being fully engaged in work when I'm at work and being fully engaged in life when I'm doing life. Now again, that's hard. It's incredibly hard, But that's the goal. And giving myself grace when I don't do that well. Yeah, I love it. I want to go into a quick fire, but can I ask you one more question before we do? I'm so curious. How's it been being business partners with your best friend? Um, great. Um, but it's because he's great. yeah. I think that, um, I can have a lot of edge. can be pretty intense, um, incredibly goal oriented. Um, you know, patients, most people that know me wouldn't say that I have a lot of patients, you know, those kinds of things. And so all the things that, quite honestly, I struggle with and that I'm working on to be a better human. He's already there. And so that helps a ton. And so that's made it a lot easier. I don't know that I could do this with another me, if that makes sense. That wouldn't have made sense. We would not have complimented each other. We may have come up with some really cool stuff, but we would have burned out pretty quickly. so fortunately for me, My business partner, Dr. Bob, somebody, know, there's a couple of us inside the company that say all the time, you know, that's what I want to be when I grow up, right? And so he's made it, quite honestly, he's made it easy. That's what I am. I'm such an interesting person because I have this like very driven, I can see Tom in me, like just so driven. And then also this like, I just really wanna be a doctor. Like yeah, like I wanna be that chill. Everything's good. Relying on the Lord, trusting, relaxed. It's something to aspire to, yes. it, well again, and how do we find, you know, how do we find balance and harmony in that, right? And both are incredibly important, you know, and how do we, how do we find balance in that? And you know, we're, we're, we're, we're created in it differently for, very specific purposes, right? Um, but man, it sure would be, I, I, I would sure love to have more of that than I do. So fortunately I just get to hang out with it. rub shoulders with it a little bit and it helps. gift is probably move the business forward. I mean, he'd probably say something similar like, I'm glad I have driven Tom, moving the ship. I love it. Yeah. Business partnerships are interesting. Some of them are really challenging and to see one that works really, really well, like that's such a beauty. think a lot of us would like to have a partner, somebody to think things through, to bounce things off of. And if we don't have a partner, I've been challenged by another person on the podcast just to have a board of directors that you can just talk to and like get their ideas and their perspective. Because so many of us do business, not all alone, but it feels very lonely. And so I just, I love, I love hearing that because I've always wondered with partnerships. Let's quick fire, just some fun questions. Thank you. Okay. One thing you would be embarrassed if people knew. Yeah. So, um, and I've alluded to this a little bit, but how much I didn't know about Med device, uh, when I got, when I got into this business and, I will, you know, we were, I'll share a really quick story. Um, hopefully my competition won't use it against me if they ever hear this, but, um, you know, we, were the device, the, the rampart device itself was, was ready to go. I mean, it was, we were within 30, 60 days of putting in the hospital and really starting to do patient, you know, doing it with patient and in health and healthcare teams. And at some point, somehow somebody looked up and said, Hey, so what are we going to do to, to drape this? And like, what do you mean drape that helped me understand? Remember I've got a full-time job up until a lot, a large part of this. haven't been able to go see a lot of cases or understand what's going on. I'm going simply off of, you know, kind of word of mouth in terms of what works and those kinds of things, right. In a testing environment that was with phantoms and those kinds of things. So, but you've put this over a patient. during the procedure so it's got to be sterile. So you have to put these sterile coverings over the device. Well our device is pretty tricky. mean it moves, it's dynamic, it adjusts, those kinds of things. So you can't just have a sheet. So it has to be a very specifically designed item. After I get over my initial embarrassment, my gosh, how in the world did I not know this? So I start calling up some folks and again, remember we're 60 days out from commitments. And the first person I called said, yeah, it's about a 12 month lead time. It's gonna cost you X hundred thousands of dollars in development. And I'm like, oh my goodness. So I went from being. incredibly embarrassed, but we'll figure it out because we always figure it out to scare the death, right? Fortunately, again, the right was led to the right person, the right person was led to us, whatever. We found a great business and somehow, some way, we turned what would normally be a six to 12 month project into two months and had sterile drapes. And it's a huge part of business now. Mm-hmm. that yes, it's absolutely, it's a revenue producer for us, but that design is still part of, a huge part of what we do, and that it takes less than two minutes to be able to sterile drape these, which is incredibly important. You think about somebody's rolling in with a heart attack in emergent care. And so anyway, yeah, that's, it's pretty embarrassing though. That's, that's exactly it, yeah. know, I think we all want to avoid those moments, but I feel like sometimes, just gotta go through it. Just gotta go through it. Any regrets or wish you could do over moments? No. And you just said it, right? Actually, this is the perfect segue. So no, there's nothing I wish I would have done. There's some things I wish I would have done right the first time, right? But not done over. And the reason I say that is I think it's, you just alluded to it, it's those learning moments that I think help us build muscle, that build character. that help us realize our potential. And quite honestly, they keep us incredibly humble as well. And so without some of those moments, quite honestly, we're not who we are today. We're not typically high character folks that have a lot of tenacity and muscle and those kinds of things because of all the easy things we did. Right? We typically get that from the learnings that we've had, the stupid things that we did, the bad decisions, you know, whatever that may be. And so, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish any of those away. I just wish I would, and some of them may have, you know, made a better decision at the time. Yeah, that's so good. Okay, big win or pinch me moment. Yeah, so I would, I'd say there's a couple. earlier in the podcast, right, spring of 2018, the, my gosh, this actually works. You know, I think it had so much had built up to that. I don't know that it was a pinch me as much as a sigh of relief, right? And that, you know, my one of my best friends in the world, the money that he's invested in it, this actually could work. So that was cool. The other one was, I think it was early 2021. And we had, you heard me say earlier, KOLs, key opinion leaders. We had some of the rock stars of interventional cardiology that found out about our device. Some of that was from the team that we had hired, and got behind our mission, partly because they were hurting, partly because it was a legacy that they wanted to leave. And so, here it is, 2021. into heading into 2022. And I'm watching live cases of some of the most challenging cases with some of the rock stars of interventional cardiology that are being watched by people all over the world. And they're talking not about the case, but they're talking about this really cool radiation protection device that they've got and how they're not having to wear lead. And this is going to be the first night that they get to go home and not take ibuprofen and two glasses of wine and lay down on the couch so that they can get up and go to work the next day, right? And not be hurting. And so that was pretty incredible with that point. That wasn't just, hey, this could work. That was the moment of going, hey, this is, this is going to work. You know, we've got Bill Lombardi, Bill Nicholson, know, whoever, right? Saying this is, this is incredibly important and I want to take this to my peers across the, across the globe. I mean, I get chill bumps like how incredible, what a dream to get to do it with your best friend. You're in law now. I mean, it's just so cool. Best advice or just really good advice that you have received. Yeah, so in my line of work, we call it feedback, right? And so, and feedback is a gift, although it seldom feels like it in the moment. And so I was working for a company by the name of Target, great, great business development leadership company and great processes around leadership development and those kinds of things. And I was in some kind of accelerated development program with Target and I had gotten some just hammer over the head moment about, Tom, you're working really hard to figure out what people want from you and give it to them, as opposed to just being your authentic self. words like, hey, you're being political. You're not getting to the truth, those kinds of things. And the guy that did it, he was a professional at what he did. He knew from my personality type it was going to have to hurt in order for it to sink in and he made it hurt. But the advice was just be you. Be the authentic you. There's only one you and you've got to be you and stop worrying so much about keeping up with others or figuring out what they want to hear from you. You know, those kinds of things. so, yeah, I think the really cool thing about that is If you've got that, and some of that was how I was raised, right? mean, that goes back to A, how you're wired, and B, how you're raised, some of that is. But the people that work with me today, until they maybe they hear this, they won't know that that's a challenge for me, because I go out of my way to be so authentic and so direct now. It's one of those things where you can call me a lot of things, but not authentic will not be one of Yeah, yeah. And so, but again, it's something that I have to continue to work on. But I think it's important for all of us. I think some folks are just, they're much more confident, you know, I think in who they are, much more able to not have that, you know, not have that filter or that worry. And there's folks like, you know, there's folks like me, I really worry about that. So anyway. You worry about how you're perceived or yeah. absolutely. Or, and how I am perceived and am I giving that person what it is that they want, they need, am I giving them the message in a way that they can digest it when at times I just need to be giving them the message so that they can clearly understand it, right? And so that's where, again, where I have to be really careful. Yeah. And especially as a CEO with a team under you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think as someone who also very much thinks about her words and which is good, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but there have been seasons in my my career where I can see where I had to come back to myself and ask those same questions like. You are the I never saw myself being a CEO. I'm very comfortable as the CFO with the spreadsheets. I never saw myself as the leader. And so just like continuing to, you know, I was put into a position I didn't expect to be put into. And yeah, that's challenging for me. And I don't think people know that. I don't think most people would guess that about me. But to just continue, just be yourself. And yeah, so thank you for sharing that. That's a lot. mean, it's helpful to hear. It's helpful to hear. What are you working on now or one resource you would like to share? Yeah, so we didn't get to it earlier. So I had two resources to share just in case we got to one of them earlier, but we didn't get to it earlier. I am, we run our company on EOS, so entrepreneurial operating system. And again, it's probably the, in some ways, maybe the engineer's way of running a company, right? But it's a method, it's developed by a guy by the name of, by Gina Whitman. And it's really neat and it's really neat, Shannon, and that it, what's that? Traction, that's it. yeah, get a grip on your business. Traction, get a grip of your business, right? And the whole concept of EOS, right, is that we're gonna take the business and we're gonna slice it into six components. And if we can make those six components healthy and strong, we're gonna make the business strong. Now that's aside from the problem, you can't have a bad product and have six great components. I you can still have a great product, right? But whether that's vision, people, data, issues, process, and then traction, which is kind of the discipline of how you run, know, kind of how you run your company. So we've run EOS since day one. I was a coach in the past in that and in a prior life with a company that I was in, we brought that in and... And that's where I learned the system there. And so that's resource that I would share with folks. And there's parts of that that you can do partly that would be helpful, but as a system, it's designed to work together. And it can be really powerful for folks that are trying to figure out, how do I build a foundation and find a way to scale something that at the end of the day is going to be bigger than me? So there you go. can learn that from the book Traction. You can certainly self-implement on that. can most likely, I mean think it's so daggone popular now, think you can just about find a coach in any city in the country if you Google that or whatever. But I would read the book. There's a book out there called What the Heck is the OS? And that's a much easier read. Okay. for folks that are going, hey, is this something that might be for me? So can read that and if that makes sense at that point for you and resonates, then I would go to Traction and get a grip on your business. And if that really resonates, then you can kind of decide, hey, is this something that maybe I want to invest in to help me run my company? We couldn't, I couldn't do what I do without that system. So, yeah. sitting on somewhere in my house. I'm pretty sure for the past two years, I have had so many people say, Shanna, read this book. And so I'm committing to you, Tom, on this podcast that I want to read it before the end of the year, because we're recording this in November. I'm not sure when it'll come out, but 2020, you know, we're in 2025, like I would love. So this is a good little push for me. get the, it is, I mean, we've got six weeks left, right? So just to help you make your commitment, get What the Heck is EOS and read that one. That'll be an easier, faster read. And then you can decide if you want to go to the full commitment, right, of traction. So, yeah. you said two resources. Well, had two lined up, so based off time, we don't have to do the second one, so we're good. well I'm curious now what it is. It's, it is, it's the, it's Working Genius by Patrick Lincione. I don't know if, if you've, oh my goodness. That could be a separate, that could be a separate podcast in and of itself. So Patrick Lincione was part of part two of his books, Or part of EOS for obsessions of an executive and the five dysfunctions of the team. So Working Genius is a tool and an assessment that helps us determine What are our working geniuses? What brings us life at work? But it's six components. And typically, almost always, there's two that are working genius, two that are working frustrations, and two that are in the middle. And the six components, if you think of the word widget, so it's wonder, and I'll try to make sure I get it right, but... So it identifies the need for improvement for change. So it's that person that, well, what about if, or how about why do we do it this way? You know, those kinds of things, right? The invention, confirms the importance of that need and then helps to generate the idea or their solution for it. And then there's discernment, which assesses the merit of that idea. There's galvanizing, which you can imagine that that's the person that generates enthusiasm and action around the idea. Mm-hmm. engagement, initiate support, and assist in the of the implementation of that idea. And the last one is that tenacious person, right, that commits to ensuring that the idea or that solution that it gets done. And so through assessments, you can really take, you can take everybody in the workforce. And again, this is a work thing, although it does speak a little bit too personal. But you can, through that assessment, you can begin to put maps together for solution teams and those kinds of things so that you're thinking about diversity of perspective and all the elements from concept to getting it done within either A, a company, or B, individual work teams within that company. You wouldn't want everybody in a company, for example, to be a wonder person. Somebody's got to get it done. Somebody's got to galvanize the team, those kinds of things. That's been a lot of fun, very inexpensive tool. lot of fun. Patrick Lincione's great. And it's just one of his more recent tools. Yes. here, so I cannot believe I've never heard of this and have Lauren take it today. You will love it, trust me. I'm excited. I'm already thinking about what everybody is. Tom, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for sharing your story. This has been honestly such a treat to get to know you and because I just love your daughter so much and I could not literally run this business without her. never leave. Let's send it off with going back to the moment that your friend Bob sat at your kitchen table. and said, hey, like, I just really need some help. Looking back now, what would you tell yourself on that day? Yeah, um... There's a ton, right? And I think that this perspective, I think it's so powerful for everybody that goes back to that day, right? And it's just accepting that the path that you're about to walk, the journey that you think lies in front of you is gonna be very, very different from what you think today. And that's okay, right? And so, as a matter of fact, it almost assuredly will be. And so I think there's so many times, Shanna, that we're you know, through our faith, we're only given enough light to see the next step. Although some of us want to map out the whole trip ahead of time. Me too, right? And so, but because of that, I think as we get into it, so many times we start to realize that, that trip that we've mapped out, that's not the one that's been designed for us. And that's not how this solution is going to be put in place, know, and those kinds of things. you can, somebody with my personality, can get really frustrated with that. Or you can learn to iterate and give yourself some grace and to understand that that, you know, so cliche, right? It's about the journey, it's not the destination, right? But that that is part of the journey and making you who you are. you know, and so... Anyway, as a result, would say looking back on this, I mean, we've impacted more people than I ever thought we would. There's more stories tied to this than I could ever imagine. And that includes, you know, that includes not just the teams that we're taking care of, but the teams that we have, right? We really want to empower people to live in their gifting. Like that's really as a company what we're all about. And so, again, that's not just our customers, but that's just our team. And so to think from that vanity fair napkin at the table that day and what I had imagined in a lot of naivety. Completely different now from this truly this huge focus and passion point for us to plug people into what they were created to do. Completely different, but much more beautiful, much more painful in some cases too, but much more beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story. This has been so great and thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you.