Consider the Wildflowers
Consider the Wildflowers
081. Natalie Franke: Facing Hardship Head-On
Today’s guest knows a thing or two about surviving hardship and coming out the other side. Today’s guest opened up about her journey founding multiple successful companies while navigating neurosurgery, infertility, and seasons of burnout – and how she maintained a perspective of gratitude through it all.
Natalie Franke is an author, community builder, neuroscience nerd and mama bear for small business.
As Head of Community at Flodesk, Co-Founder of the Rising Tide Society, former head of community for Honeybook, and USA Today bestselling author of Gutsy, she leads tens of thousands of small business owners while fostering a spirit of community over competition around the world.
If you’re going through a hard season and need some words of encouragement, press play on today’s episode.
WILDFLOWER SHOWNOTES : shannaskidmore.com/natalie-franke
📌 RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Natalie (00:00):
Kids screaming the other night driving me nuts. And I mean, I was really at my wit's end as a mom. I tried everything, man. Gentle parenting. I was like, alright, gentle, gentle parenting that keep the voice low. Let's try this strategy. Let's try to redirect, let's do this big feelings, giving hugs all the things. And I'm having a moment and I say to my husband, I said, Hey, can you take over? And he said, rather than taking over, can I remind you of something? And I said, what? And he said, we never thought we'd get this Nat. And I just, oh my God, I'm crying again. I just stopped. I just froze. And he's like, we never thought we'd get this. Yes, the kids are screaming, yes, the dog just threw up on the kitchen floor. Yes, the dishes haven't been done. Yes, it's chaos and you worked late because of this, that and the other. But Nat, look at where we are. And I would say the same to you. To whoever's listening in this exact moment, who's going through something hard, you've overcome so much to get to where you are. If five-year-old you saw you right now, how proud would they be looking at the person that you've become?
Shanna (01:01):
You're listening to Consider The Wildflowers the podcast episode 81. Today's guest knows a thing or two about surviving hardship and coming out on the other side, Natalie opened up about her journey founding multiple successful companies while navigating neurosurgery, infertility, and seasons of burnout and how she maintained a perspective of gratitude through it all. Natalie Frank is an author, community builder, neuroscience nerd, and Mama Bear for small business as head of community at Flo Desks, co-founder of the Rising Tide Society, former head of community for HoneyBook and USA today bestselling author of Gutsy. She leads tens of thousands of small business owners while fostering a spear of community over competition around the world. If you're going through a hard season and need some words of encouragement, press play on today's episode. Hey, it's Shanna and this is Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. For the past 15 plus years, I've had the honor to hear thousands of stories from entrepreneurs around the world.
(01:54):
As a former Fortune 100 financial advisor turned business consultant, I have a unique opportunity to see the reel. Behind the highlight reel. I'm talking profit and loss statements, unpaid taxes, moments of burnout, and those of utter victory. Or as my husband says, the content everyone is wondering but not many are talking about. And now I'm bringing these private conversations to you. Hear the untold stories of how industry leaders, founders, and up and coming entrepreneurs got their start, the experiences that shaped them and the journey to building the brands they have today. Stories that will inspire and reignite encourage to redefine success and build a life in business on your own terms. Welcome Wildflower. I'm so glad you're here. Hi Natalie. Welcome to the show. This is going to be so fun.
Natalie (02:36):
I am pumped. I'm so excited. We were having conversation even before hitting record and then realized, okay, we probably should start recording. I cannot wait. Thank you for having me on.
Shanna (02:46):
Natalie, will you give me a quick, just 62nd, it doesn't have to be 62nd whatcha up to these days? Tell me just a picture of your life and work right now In 2024,
Natalie (03:00):
My life and work looks far different than it ever has in any other season of my life. So I am by day the head of community at Flow Desks, which is an email marketing company for small business owners. We help small business owners to grow, to nurture, and ultimately to monetize their email lists. And I run our marketing communications team, so everything related to social content, our help center, our Facebook group and community affiliate program, partnership program, bringing the product to market, all of that. I run alongside an incredible team and I also am a mom to two little ones. I have a soon to be 5-year-old and a 2-year-old who I love so much, so, so much. And I'm married to my high school sweetheart. We live in this little town called Annapolis. It's for anyone who's not familiar right on the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland.
(03:59):
We're not far from Washington DC not far from Baltimore, but it feels like a world away. It's this very old, very historic little town with brick roads and everything is centered around the water. And so I go for walks every single day, whether it's ideally around the neighborhood and by the water with my kids and my husband and I take them to the park when I'm not working or I work from a desk that is also a treadmill. That's awesome. So I would say, yeah, I work a lot. I live a lot, I have a lot of fun and I try to do it all while moving, always moving.
Shanna (04:34):
That's so good. I've been sitting, this is my fifth call of the day, 31 weeks pregnant and I have my compression socks on.
Natalie (04:42):
Oh mama.
Shanna (04:45):
It's so fantastic. And every day that I do, and I love, just today my husband was like, do you still stacking these calls? And I'm like, yeah, right now in this season of life, I'm only working about 20 hours a week. And so even though it makes for a very full day, it's like then the other days are not full, can focus on other things. But it's so funny, I was like, get my compression socks on and let's go. I love that. I need a walking desk is what this is coming down to.
Natalie (05:19):
Oh, I love mine. You inspired me. I cannot recommend it enough. I tell everyone to do it. It was the best thing I bought during the pandemic for sure.
Shanna (05:27):
I love it. How long have you been with flow desks?
Natalie (05:30):
So I joined Flow desks not very long ago, back in October. And we're recording this now almost in February. So I've been here for a few months from a full-time perspective, but I've actually been a kind of advisor officially, but been a part of this company since it was first created. My really dear friend who is one of our co-founders and chief brand officer shared about her vision for flow desks back in my kitchen six-ish years ago now in San Francisco, shortly after I had moved. And she was just telling me about this idea to make emails as beautiful as possible and to try to just put this power back into the pockets of small business owners. Billion dollar brands can code these spectacular emails, but what about the rest of us? How do we give that ability and that design capability to small business owners, which I know you know me and anyone who does that is my fire.
(06:27):
I get fired up for small business. So I've been an advisor along the way for several years and then ultimately made the decision to join in the fall. And it's been an absolutely thrilling and challenging at times experience, really stretching myself professionally. And I'm, as an entrepreneur, I'm sure you can relate as well, but I love to constantly be learning. I don't like being in a position where I know how everything works and if I say it feels comfortable, it's not for me. I live in discomfort. I love the challenge of learning a new platform or managing a team or hiring and navigating how to create a really incredible culture, those sorts of things. And on the small business space, doing work that matters, really fighting forward for these small business owners in a world where nobody's fighting for them, nobody is fighting for small business.
(07:27):
There's constant regulation that makes it harder and harder to run the business. There's challenges right now, we're enduring the Gmail compliance challenges where they're for good, they're going to improve the email industry and anyone who sends emails and masks for their business, it's going to make it better for all of us, but we have to jump through some massive hoops in order to ensure that small business can continue to flourish and succeed. And so those sorts of challenges, they get me fired up and I love it. And I've been enjoying my first few months here leading the marketing communications team.
Shanna (08:00):
Natalie, you have such a heart for small business and entrepreneurship. You are an entrepreneur, you have held some more traditional, if that's the right word, roles.
Natalie (08:13):
Yeah,
Shanna (08:15):
It's totally off script. How do you maintain your entrepreneurial spirit? Is it the work you're doing in your job and then outside your job as well that keeps that fire going? Or do you find roles that allow you the flexibility and just embrace who you are?
Natalie (08:35):
This is such a great question and for anyone who at the very high level isn't familiar with my background, I started my career as a wedding photographer. I was a wedding photographer for eight years. Co-founded a community called the Rising Tide Society. That community was acquired by a tech startup, HoneyBook. And I moved out to San Francisco to build community at HoneyBook, which is what introduced me to the friendships that ultimately led to flow desks and where I am today. So yes, it's a very nonlinear path coming from the small business world originally. And then now being an executive at a very successful tech company. Yes, it's certainly also not what I imagined myself doing back on day one when I photographed my first wedding. However, when it comes down to the entrepreneurial side of what I do, I like to describe it as honest as I can, which is to say that I am unemployable.
(09:29):
I am not a traditional employee by any means. I need to be building in order to be happy and fulfilled. So I think that in a normal company, a normal corporate, let's say environment, I don't know. I don't think that I would be excited to go to work every day. I think that it would really diminish the things about me that allow me to make my greatest impact. And another way to think about it is I don't ask for permission, I ask for forgiveness. I'm one of those. So it either works really, really well or you're like, I'm sorry, you got to go. And so I've just kind of naturally followed the flow of my life and approached every opportunity as precisely that. And so I think one thing to pass along to anyone in any season of life, especially in the entrepreneurial space, is you never know what tomorrow's going to bring.
(10:25):
You never know what opportunity might lay in front of you. You never know what relationship could change the trajectory of your entire life. And for me, I have always prioritized people over everything else, and that has opened every door that has ever opened for me. So I don't know, I never actually went out and saw it either my role at HoneyBook or my role at Flow Desk so much as it aligned, it just came to be and aligned and yeah, I don't know what else to say other than it kind of just fit. It felt like a shoe that fit.
Shanna (11:01):
And I love Natalie. The reason I ask that, it's like you are an entrepreneur in a, there's still space to have that entrepreneurial spirit in a role that may look more traditional than you have your own. And I also love that you're doing so many other things. You're speaking, you just wrote a book which we're going to talk about outside of that. And so I just think that's neat because, and I wanted to highlight the fact that you are keeping that entrepreneurial spirit alive in whatever position may come.
Natalie (11:37):
Yes, yes.
Shanna (11:39):
I love it. Can we talk about life just really fast and then we can go back and actually get to the script here. You have two kiddos and you had a brain tumor. I
Natalie (11:53):
Did. I know.
Shanna (11:55):
I mean since the last time I think we've really, really chatted all of that has happened. I mean, walk me through just how do you sum that up? I mean maybe just the season of life that you've walked through and how you've navigated that while still pursuing your dreams. Yes.
Natalie (12:20):
I was diagnosed with a benign brain tumor in my early twenties, just several months before I married my high school sweetheart. I was getting ready to graduate from college. The wedding was in the spring and I got this diagnosis sort of out of the blue, to be honest, although it answered a lot of questions that I had had for a long time about symptoms and things like that that I just sort of written off as stress or part of life. And so my journey with it was one that required years and years of processing and then years of recovery. And so from the time I was diagnosed until the time I had brain surgery, it was about five years. And the reason for that was simply because the medical team that I had out here on the East coast prior to moving to San Francisco recommended it felt that surgery was more of a risk to my health than allowing the tumor to remain and monitor it from an ongoing, ongoing basis.
(13:18):
But then when I moved, I got this new team and they do these surgeries all the time to them, although there are risks and I don't want to diminish them by any means, they felt more equipped and they were more aggressive in their approach. And what it also opened the door for the first time in my life, I was 27, had just turned 27, was the opportunity to start fertility treatment. And I say opportunity because prior to that, this tumor came with a diagnosis of infertility. It's located in a hormonal center of the brain, and so it impacts someone's ability to get pregnant and also maintain a healthy pregnancy. And I wasn't allowed to do fertility treatment with the tumor the size that it was and where it was located. I went, we tried and the doctors just didn't feel like they were open to helping my husband and I have children,
Shanna (14:14):
You know that were diagnosed before getting married. Did you know that that was
Natalie (14:21):
A possibility? Yes, yes. I had always suspected some of my symptoms had kind of led me to suspect that something wasn't right. My cycles aren't normal without going to squeamish into too many details just they never happen right By not normal, I mean maybe one a year if I'm lucky. So I knew something was up and that diagnosis, and in particular my case within that diagnosis came with just a very honest conversation with my doctor where they made it clear that it was very unlikely was kind of how it was worded. It was very unlikely that I would ever have biological children. It was fairly impossible, although as we know, there are miracles every day, but as close as impossible as it can get to it occurring naturally. And so I knew that going in and I didn't fully accept that though until it would've been the summer of 2016 when I went to our local fertility clinic here in the DC area to try and see if they would be willing to help and was essentially told that with the tumor where it was, they didn't feel that it was the right idea to pursue fertility treatment that would require injections and hormones.
(15:53):
And there are just a lot of risks with anything like that and the potential for this tumor to grow and to cause a whole host of complications. The doctor just was literally said, it's not a good idea. I don't recommend you doing this with the tumor in your head. And so that was summer of 2016, again, four-ish years after diagnosis. And it felt like a door slamming shut at that moment in that because I didn't foresee myself going through with the surgery at any point in my life. And so to me it was, well, I'm never going to have this tumor taken out and I don't want to go through radiation in my brain unless it is a life or death situation. So that's also out. And I guess that means that I have to kind of accept a different picture of my future then I thought it was really hard.
(16:42):
I don't actually talk about that part very often. I don't get asked about it very often. But if I was ever to be asked what was harder being told that you might not be a mom or being told you have a tumor in your head, as soon as I knew it was benign to me, I knew I could deal with it. But the thought of never being a mom when I had spent my whole life being raised by a single mom who was my entire world and I wanted to be a mom that was, I am crying thinking about it. That was the hardest thing. And to say to my now husband who had been dating me for seven years, high school, college, seven years, that we might not be able to have biological kids. Again, it's for anyone who's gone through anything like this regardless of outcome, I know you can empathize that it is a very difficult thing to process. And it wasn't until I sat down with a new neurosurgeon and a new neuroendocrinologist out in San Francisco and I presented my case to them, not with the hope of having surgery, but simply for a checkup. I had to reestablish medical care. And the neurosurgeon said to me, can I ask why you're opposed to getting the tumor removed and to have surgery? And I said, well, I'm not opposed. It's just never been the recommendation. I said, what do you think I should do? And he said, if you were my daughter
(18:08):
And you were 27 years old, and I had already mentioned at that point that the fertility clinic out there had rejected me as well as a candidate, he said, I would do it. I would do it. I would do the surgery knowing the risks. And I believe that in our hands, we're going to give you the best potential for the best quality of life. And then you will never live your life wondering what if. You will always know that you did this step. And in the best case scenario, it will lead to the outcome you're hoping for. Now with still a very hard path after that. But I'm grateful. I am so grateful for that neurosurgeon, so grateful because he made me a promise. He said, after surgery, six months after surgery, if everything looks good, we will clear you and encourage the reproductive endocrinologist, which is the fertility doctor
(19:03):
To help you and to take on your case as long as everything looks good. Six months and one day, from the date of my surgery, I was walking into the fertility clinic at UCSF and there was still a really long journey ahead. It was a very hard journey for both kids and it looked different for both of my kids. A lot of waiting, a lot of struggle, a lot of emotions, a lot of failed cycles, a lot of drugs, a lot of injections, a lot of heartbreak, and two miracles on the other side that I know. Any parent, regardless of your journey to get there can relate to the fact that you'll have these moments. And I had one over the summer with my two little kids playing on the front porch. And I remember looking at them and just thinking I would do it all again tenfold for 30 seconds with these two for 30 seconds just to sit here and watch my babies play on the porch. If that's all I got, I would go through all of it again 10 times over and that it was worth it. It was absolutely worth it.
Shanna (20:05):
I mean, Natalie, you cannot do this to a 31 week pregnant
Natalie (20:10):
Person. I'm sorry, mama, I'm sorry. But it's the truth. Praise the
Shanna (20:15):
Lord. Praise the Lord. Yeah, I know. I know what a blessing these sweet babies are, and I can only imagine for anyone listening who is the waiting is so hard, Natalie, thank you for sharing. And through all of that, you have written two books now, right? Two books started Rising Tide Society, which how big at the time when you transitioned out. Do you remember how big that community was?
Natalie (20:53):
Yeah, so amidst all of what I just described, you're right, a lot of life happened and Rising Tide at our peak in 2019, right before the pandemic, that was really, and for a lot of communities, we all know it happened in 2020, but right before 2020, we were meeting in about 400 cities every month around the world, 75,000 community members. I think at that point we had maybe 600 leaders, 650 leaders across those 400 chapters. Very, very large community infrastructure that we had built and was actively running and growing. And today rising Tide is a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit. So it's still around, it still exists, it's gone through a really incredible rebirth moment over the last several months coming into nonprofit status. And I think there's still a very, very exciting future ahead for Rising Tide, a very different one, but yet a very exciting one ahead.
Shanna (21:52):
So with that, and thank you for sharing your story and your journey, and gosh, it's so good to talk to you. I'm asking these questions kind of in reverse. So for anyone who is building a business, we are also living our life, and you lived a lot of life during the businesses you've built, the roles you've had, the communities, you've built, the books, the speaking, how have you, harmony is the word I tend to use, but for you finding harmony, but also how did you focus on work and passion and pursuing your dreams while at the same time going through really heavy things, and I'm sure really beautiful things too in life, but just a lot of life.
Natalie (22:45):
Yeah. Look, first I just want to say imperfectly. How did I do it imperfectly, but I didn't do it alone. And I think perhaps that's the most important part to share is that while I am not sure I ever have or will figure out the perfect harmony, right, the synchronicity of having all the notes play together in this melodic tune mind probably sounds more like a three-year-old on a piano most days. But what I will say is that it's okay to show up imperfectly. It's okay to be a leader and make mistakes or to need to take time away or to decide that you want to change the way that you're running your life, your business because of what you're going through and what you're navigating. You don't have to do it alone though. And like I said, I think that's a really important part to note is that I built a community around myself.
(23:41):
So in business I found small business owning friends that I felt safe to confide in and call when things weren't going well. I had my husband who was my partner throughout all of that, and cannot be thanked enough for the sacrifices that that man has made for our family and for my dreams. He's an Enneagram eight, which I spent most of our relationship thinking he was a two because that man just sacrifices and sacrifices for the people that he loves. And a two an eight are very different. They're very different. Although in Aidan Health, I believe appears as though they're a two when they are fully in health, they will burn the world down to support the people that they love. They will give anything and everything to fight for the people that they love. They're a little more fierce than a two in that way.
(24:29):
But nonetheless, we'll show up as a helper. And so I say all of that to say I had a lot of help and I had a lot of support, but I never quite figured it out. I still haven't figured it out. Right before we hopped on this podcast, I cried to my husband about how stressful of a week I am having, because sometimes it feels like the weight of the world is on my shoulders and it's hard. But one other last little thing I'll add here is that while I've never found this perfect formula or this exact schedule or science to navigating hard things and busy seasons, I have learned that your perspective is absolutely everything. And while you cannot control very often what happens in your life, whether it's your health, for me, it evolved into recovery for years, chronic illness, like you even said this season after, and it's like, well, I'm still living it.
(25:26):
I think people forget that when you go through something like that, I'll never be the same. I struggle with certain things. I get sicker than everybody else in my circle. My immune system is not the same. My hormones are not ever balanced. Both pregnancies has got preeclampsia. I'll always have something that I'm battling through because my system is just a little bit often compromised in this postum world where it did some damage. And so I say all that to say that I've got to give myself grace and I have to be willing to adopt a perspective of gratitude, a perspective of appreciating every single day, even the ones that feel overwhelming, even the ones that I completely wish would go faster or slower or whatever it is in loss and grief and in exhaustion and burnout, I have to take the reins and you do as well to reclaim your perspective over all of it, to kind of take that step back and say, I am in control of certain aspects.
(26:33):
I might not be able to control all of it, and there are things I'm going to leave. For me, it's like I got to leave it up to God. I cannot control it. I've got to let go. But that's perspective, right? Kids screaming the other night driving me nuts, and I mean, I was really at my wit's end as a mom. I tried everything, man, gentle parenting. I was like, alright, gentle, gentle parenting that keep the voice low. Let's try this strategy. Let's try to redirect, let's do this. Let's big feelings, giving hugs all the things. And I'm having a moment and I say to my husband, I said, Hey, can you take over? And he said, rather than taking over, can I remind you of something? And I said, what? And he said, we never thought we'd get this, Nat. And I just, oh my God, I'm crying again.
(27:16):
Sorry. I just stopped. I just froze. And he's like, we never thought we'd get this. Yes, the kids are screaming, yes, the dog just threw up on the kitchen floor. Yes, the dishes haven't been done. Yes, it's chaos and you worked late because of this, that and the other. But Nat, look at where we are. And I would say the same to you, to whoever's listening in this exact moment is going through something hard. You've overcome so much to get to where you are. If five-year-old, you saw you right now, how proud would they be looking at the person that you've become? And while that doesn't solve the pain you might be feeling in this moment, it's not this immediate relief or this I miracle cure. It does transform the way you approach the challenges that sit in front of you, right? It does approach the way
Shanna (28:04):
You view your courage. You are preaching to the soul right now. Yes. Yes. Thank you for sharing this. Yeah. Perspective is sometimes we need someone just to be like, Hey, let's reset for a second, because entrepreneurship can be so lonely. I love how you said like we did, you didn't do it alone. There is a quote, I was trying to pull it up while you're talking about that my husband and Kyle shared with me, I think it's John Wooden quote, and I'm going to botch you. This isn't perfect, everybody, but it basically was saying, we can get so distracted by things we can't control that we don't spend any time on the things we can. And that's been something that I've really been thinking a lot about. And this particular season of our life, we have a lot of things just that we're waiting for things to work themselves out. It's just kind of a process of time. Nothing bad, but it's just time of awaiting season. And I can get so frustrated with, because I like to control all the things, my timeline and I like for things to happen. And that was just really convicting for me in the sense of there are things I can show up and control in my work and in my day and in my life, even when maybe other things feel out of control.
(29:30):
Thank you. I mean, what a great conversation. Just enjoyed our time. I would love to quickly just go back a little bit of course and talk about your journey as a business owner and now into the roles that you're playing and writing a book. So we don't have a ton of time, but I do want to know your background and maybe other people know this a ton, but I would just love for you to talk about how you got started in your first business, why photography, and maybe if you want to speak to the transitions you've had along the way, how those have come about and why you've taken them.
Natalie (30:18):
Yeah, absolutely. So I started as a photographer back in my senior year of high school, little 17-year-old Natalie. And it came about through discovering photography. My mom thought it would be an incredible way for me to navigate my emotions and be creative. And so it was never meant to be a business, it was meant to be a hobby. But I very quickly realized just how much I loved photography. And so throughout my senior year of high school, I started photographing friends' portraits, and that naturally spun itself into a business. And while I was studying an undergrad, I built up the wedding side of that business, moved from portraits into weddings because I saw one that it was an incredibly lucrative path and photography two, it gave an opportunity for a lot of cashflow projection, right? When you run a wedding business, you book out years in advance.
(31:18):
So you have a long runway of visibility into the business side of things. And as much as I am a creative, I'm also very much a science nerd, and I love finding that sense of stability, balanced with the freedom of entrepreneurship. There was something there that really appealed to me. I could see what my income would be well in advance, but then I was still building something, creating something that had no limits. So that felt incredibly freeing. I did that all throughout college and my senior year decided not to pursue a traditional job and instead went right into running that photography business. I scaled it up to multiple six figures, which is the point at which I think I hit my emotional rock bottom. I hit my revenue high of two 50, I think is right where I capped out at my peak as a solo wedding photographer.
(32:07):
I didn't have a team, I didn't have associates. That was just me. And that was back in the days before AI editing. And gosh, I wish that existed. It didn't exist back then, but I hit this really high revenue point. I wasn't equipped to handle that level of work, that amount of business and the stress and toll that that can take, which I'm sure many can relate to. And that was the impetus that led to co-founding the Rising Tide Society. It was just hitting this rock bottom and needing other people to be there, right? Needing to have community in a really difficult but yet successful season and knowing that I could be surrounded by others that understood that, right? That understood what that could feel like. Rising Tide then went from just a coffee meetup here in Annapolis to being that massive community of over 75,000 members meeting in over 400 cities.
(32:54):
And it scaled and it grew. And along the way, the community element was acquired by HoneyBook, which like I mentioned is a tech startup out in San Francisco that supports service-based business owners, and they have software that helps the small business. So acquiring the community from their viewpoint was a way to one, live out their values and invest back into small business through free educational resources and meetups, but also was an amazing way to get exposure into this community, this audience. And so that led me to HoneyBook where I stayed for almost eight years and managed Rising Tide up until last year when Rising Tide HoneyBook decided to sunset the programming and gave the community back to the leaders. And they co-founded or all of them together, founded a nonprofit 5 0 1 3 nonprofit. And after that was secure and the community was ready to have their new moment, the opportunity to join Flow Desks arrived.
(33:54):
And I skipped in there, by the way, I wrote two books. My second book came out in August shortly before I joined the Flow Desks team and hit the US a today bestseller list, which was just such a thrilling and for me, surprising outcome. I didn't see that one coming by a mile away. First book, I would like to say my first book, we hit our goals. However, I sold as many copies of my second book in the first 30 days that I did of my first book Over the entirety, up until the point of launch. And so to anyone who feels like if they don't hit it out of the park on their first try, I just want to encourage you that you just have to keep pushing through. And Second Book has done tremendously well, it's not even out for a year yet, but it's just made such a big impact the way they've responded. The community has been just incredible to gutsy and then joined Flow Desk. So that's the high level.
Shanna (34:51):
That was so good. That was perfectly done. Natalie, when you went to HoneyBook, what made it okay for you to say, okay, I'm going to close this business have had and take this role with HoneyBook, even though it was a community, you started, I'm sure it looked very, very different, helped, and I'm sure it looked very, very different. Talk me through if you could share just a minute or two of that conversation at the kitchen table to make that shift.
Natalie (35:31):
Yes. So to boil it down, I think the most honest thing I can share about that conversation is that it came down to understanding that I was not my business, that my identity was separate of that business. And what I mean by that is that I had put so much of my heart and soul into being a photographer and building a personal brand around being a photographer. And everyone knew me as the photographer that I questioned, but who am I, if not that? Who am I if I'm not doing this thing that I've poured eight years of my life into? And it really took me understanding that my identity was not rooted in my job, whether it's a business I've built or a company that I'm working for, and I had to be willing to let go of something in order to really know that for sure.
(36:24):
And I did. And I think that's the truth. I mean, it was a very hard decision. And it took me a while to even become comfortable with saying, oh yeah, I work full-time at HoneyBook, not because of anything HoneyBook did, but just because I was so used to being an entrepreneur, only a business owner, only not working for anyone else. But when I realized that I was not my business and my business was not me, and that my identity needed and was rooted elsewhere, it became possible for me to let go of something, even though I loved it. I loved it so fiercely in order to more fully understand what was waiting for me and what I was capable of. And I'll also last bit just say, sometimes you have to lay something good down in order to pick up something. Great.
Shanna (37:14):
So true. I'm curious, Natalie. I wrote down, I feel like in the business world, people know me as the money person or the numbers person. That's kind of you and I share a very similar passion for small business. We want to be champions of small business. But in that, for me, I feel like my gift is helping people understand their money. What is that for you?
Natalie (37:42):
I would say, although it has changed a little over the years, for me, it comes down to knowing that they're not alone in business. That is a very hard thing to quantify. The ROI of. If you were to ask, well, okay, well what does that actually mean? Sure. It's just knowing that they're not alone. It's knowing that they have someone out there that's fighting for them, that they can find spaces where they belong, they can find others like them that share their values. They can do this thing even if every single person in their life doesn't believe in them. I will, I will. So I think that for me has been what I've worked to offer. And regardless of the season, whether it's a book or at the community that I'm leading or the product that we're building, it's how do I really help the business owner to do this thing? And from a personal standpoint, how do I make sure that when they're doing it, they never feel alone? Yeah,
Shanna (38:47):
That's Natalie, what I see in you as the community, the encouragement that you aren't alone. And I just think it's really neat, and I don't want to put words in your mouth or if you would say it this way, but from an outsider's perspective, looking in these roles that you've taken on as your career has progressed, it's almost like they have been fueling that passion. And so I guess I want to call that out because so often we believe that you could go be a small business coach or have a mastermind. Look, there's so many ways you could live out that passion and be a small business owner, but it's been so cool to watch you in each role that you've taken. That's always been the heart behind it. And I don't know if there's anybody listening who may be the best role for you isn't in your own company, it's someone else's. I just think your journey has that thread so clearly throughout it, even though the way that you've lived it out has changed.
Natalie (40:00):
And I would just add to that your definition of success can and should look different from everyone. It is okay if you take a path that you don't see anyone else doing. Success doesn't have to look like a mastermind or a course or becoming an educator or speaking or scaling passive revenue streams. Success can look like however it needs to look for you. And that's something that I hope people can also take away. And it's definitely been a learning experience for me in that respect of even just letting go of the expectations of our industry or what other people think I should be doing, and really dig into the work that I know I am meant to be doing, and that I know will allow me to make an even greater impact.
Shanna (40:45):
Yeah, I love that. Natalie, speaking of success, I would love to talk a little bit about the numbers and money side. So let's do it. Going from photography, figuring out your own pricing, figuring out growing your business, growing it to multiple six figures, and then transitioning into different roles, launching your books. How have you paired your vision of success in the form of impact with the financial needs of your family? What role has money played maybe in these decisions and career decisions you've been making?
Natalie (41:28):
That is such a good question. I wish I could say that money wasn't playing a factor, but I am not in a position in life, at least I haven't been yet to where I haven't had to be incredibly smart with money. And even down to retirement. I mean, again, I've been saving for retirement since I was 21, 20 maybe back when I was running my photography business and had a, I think from a broader perspective, transitioning in from my business into working full time, I knew that a non-negotiable for me was that I had to be able to make at least the same amount of money, take home, not revenue, but take home. And so from very early days, that was a part of the negotiation that I brought to the table with my very first transition into HoneyBook. I'll also say that part of what I learned early on as well, and this is more so unique to startups, is that when you come into a company that has an immense amount of risk, meaning they're young, early days, small, small, small team startup level, a lot of them have this opportunity to earn equity and actually own a piece of that company.
(42:49):
You can think of it like Silicon Valley and the early days of Facebook and people who had even but one share, right? It's now worth so much money, but back then to them it was worth 0 cent or whatever it is. So I also had to take into account not only the take home pay that I needed in order to pay my student loans at the time, way back when my rent be at the time, an equal contributor to the household. But I also knew that there was this unique opportunity to negotiate in to having a piece of the pie, an actual investment that would be worth far more down the road than it was worth at the onset if I did my job well. And so I've over years, over years, year over year have continued to grow in my career. And that take home pay has continued to increase, which has been great.
(43:43):
But I would say the other two kind of outlying factors that I think have been really helpful, and for the sake of transparency I think are important to note, is one, equity and building equity over time in the companies that I've advised or worked for or invested in my time out in San Francisco met a lot of different people starting a lot of different things. And we've had very dear family friends that we grew up with in middle school that have gone on to co-found other companies that at the time we put in, I remember getting so mad at my husband for putting in, now looking back, I'm like, we should have put in more money. But back then, I think he's like, I really want to put in $10,000. And I was like, we cannot do that. I know. And now I'm like, why didn't we just put everything in with our friend who is starting this autonomous drone company that's now a flying plane situation?
(44:36):
Anyway, investing and getting equity alongside the stability of a salary so that I'm able to both take the risk that this may be worth more in the future, while also having the stability to move forward today. And then outside of that job, ensuring that my contract allowed me to do external projects and external business work so that I signed a multi six figure book deal for my books outside of my work that was outside of my job. And I had to work on the weekends and carve out that time with PTO to write the books. But I did it. And that was a personal decision. I'm in a season of life now where I just said to my husband, no external projects I've given up. I've spent my PTO on writing for three years. I'm ready for an actual vacation. And I know that's not for everyone, but pursuing those projects outside of it, building affiliate revenue streams where I was making passive revenue. I think for full transparency, I think there was a year where I brought in maybe $70,000 in affiliate revenue without doing anything. I had written content the year prior that was just continuing to through SEO strategy, continuing to bring in affiliate revenue. And so I'm a very complicated tax case at the end of the year. We can leave it that way. I've got multiple streams and a full-time
Shanna (45:57):
Job. That's the best thing I've ever heard You said. I mean, I'm very complicated, but you said some amazing things this whole time, but that is hilarious. A very complicated tax case.
Natalie (46:07):
Yeah, I am. There are many a way that I've continued to try and make money, and I've put as much as humanly possible back into investments, whether they're in other small businesses or nonprofits that I care a lot about or retirement. Those have always been things for me where I have come to believe that as I generate wealth for myself, I have a responsibility to do good with that wealth, but it also gives me the ability to do good with that wealth. So I'm hopeful that as I continue to grow in my life and my career and take on new projects that I can continue to help along the way for the community that I care about
Shanna (46:46):
So much. Natalie, do you feel like this has come easily for you? Do you feel like money and numbers and just the things that you're talking about?
Natalie (46:54):
No.
Shanna (46:55):
What are one or two ways maybe you've learned or has it all just been trial and error? I mean about managing money, building wealth over time?
Natalie (47:07):
Oh, I shouldn't say I am, because here's that limiting belief coming out, right? I was not good with money in the beginning. I came from a single mom household, and money was not something we ever had really in surplus. And I think I came in with this scarcity mindset around money. Even now, my husband is much more willing to take financial risk, and I am very risk averse. We don't have six months savings. We have multiple years. You're prepared. I could cut off every revenue stream today and we wouldn't have to change anything about our lifestyle for a very long period of time. And that's not necessarily a good thing because I'm still working through I think a lot of that fear around money. But to that effect, what have I learned? Well, I think I've learned that you have to be willing to make certain bets in order to actually generate wealth because everyone is different in their goals.
(48:07):
But for me, I want my children to be better off than I was. And I watched my mom's sacrifice so that I could be better off than she was, right? And this has been something that I've really come to understand, which is if I make certain bets, now, we're not talking about what our total income is month over month, but we're talking about whether my children will have to pay for college if they decide to go or what their life will look like as they grow up, and how I can set them up for success and doing things that if you had told me when I was 18 and getting ready to graduate from high school and Dayton, that boy, I've been dating since 15 and he was working at Lito's Pizza and I was photographing senior portraits for extra money on the side that I would be setting up trust funds for my kids.
(48:54):
I wouldn't have believed you. And so I say all that to say that it's required me to unlearn a lot of my own limiting beliefs around money that I had brought with me based on my upbringing. It's required me to take baby steps into investing because it was very fearful for me to do something like that. I'm a saver. I'm a hoarder of money. I'm like a dragon with a den of, I am very fearful. I'm willing to give, I'm not afraid of donating, but the thought, because to me that's letting go. It's the fear of the unknown. It's the gambling gap of investing. Yes, I never gamble for that exact reason. I don't even like drinking alcohol. I don't know how I'm going to feel. I'm one of those. So I say all of that to say that it's been a long journey. But I would say I've learned sometimes you have to take certain risks in order to reap larger rewards, investing strategically, retirement, retirement, retirement, especially if you are young, but even if you're not putting money into very strategic places for retirement has been helpful.
(50:00):
And watching that grow over time, I will always be grateful for a 21-year-old nat who opened up a SEP and dumped the max at the time for me into that because it is now worth, I mean, I didn't understand just how, again, I wish I had put even more the following year, but I didn't because it compounds over time. So investing, and then I would also say just really, really challenging any aspect of your money mindset that is resulting in stress or anxiety or fear and talking it out with someone if needed. Because I think we often talk about getting support or counseling or talking it through when it comes to mental health type situations. But very rarely do we bring that into other areas of life. And I would say finances for a lot of people is one of the most stressful conversation points. And if that's for you, then maybe it's worth actually taking the time to have those hard conversations in a safe space and baby step your way into a better relationship with money because it took me years. Years. I'm 33, and again, what am I now a decade in to being an adult with my own income? And even now I am in a much healthier place, but it's taken a long time to become more comfortable.
Shanna (51:18):
Yeah, oh, I can pick your brain so much. But that was all very, very good and so insightful. And I do think, especially as business owners, limiting beliefs about money have an effect on the growth of our companies and working through those. And I've had a ton of limiting beliefs. I am a numbers person and I have my own limiting beliefs about money from my background and my upbringing that I know today have challenged the company growth aren't good for the company growth. I want to finish with one question I always love to ask and then go into a quick fire round. What would you say is the best thing you have learned about money?
Natalie (52:08):
The best thing that I have learned about money is that
Shanna (52:13):
To
Natalie (52:14):
Earn it is not inherently a bad or greedy thing. I grew up, I think, thinking that money equals greed, and I was so afraid and fearful of ever being greedy that I almost wanted to run away from money. It was hard to even charge for my services because I love doing the work that I was doing. That was a really hard thing for me to grasp. And instead, the flip side of that is that I learned that when you build a successful business or you generate wealth and you are a good steward of it, you have the opportunity to not only change your life and your family's life, but the lives of the people around you and the causes you care about and the community that you are a part of. And that is a really beautiful thing. And it's also why I'm so passionate about small businesses because I believe that entrepreneurship is one of the best gateways to transforming your financial situation, to building legacy wealth and to do good in your community where you live. Small business owners do an immense amount of good in the communities they are a part of. And so equipping more people to do that I think is one of the ways in which we make our world an even better place. Yeah,
Shanna (53:22):
I love it. Okay, let's quick fire, have some fun questions for us. What is one thing you would be embarrassed if people knew
Natalie (53:30):
That I've never had a formal job interview in my entire life?
Shanna (53:36):
Well, now this makes so much sense. Yeah. Looking at your, that's so crazy.
Natalie (53:42):
Yep. A lot of negotiations for salary, but not a lot of job interviews.
Shanna (53:47):
That's awesome.
Natalie (53:48):
As in zero? Yes.
Shanna (53:49):
As in zero. Any regrets or wish you could do over moments?
Natalie (53:56):
I wish I would have left my last job sooner. I loved HoneyBook so fiercely that it was really hard to let go, but I see now that I perhaps hung on to something that I loved because it was comfortable when perhaps I had been called to take a risk and do something new for a long time. That is a regret. I wish I would've been a little braver and jumped a little sooner simply to know again that I was capable of it. But yeah, that was a hard one.
Shanna (54:27):
Okay. Tell me about a big win or pinch me moment.
Natalie (54:31):
My book Hitting the USA Today bestseller list. I was at a podcast conference. We were not expecting it to list, and I found out before anybody else just at random, a friend was like, oh, cool, look, did you see your book was on this list? Who's also an author? And I got to tell my entire team, my publisher, all of them, none of them knew and none of them were expecting it. So it was like kind of this, wait, what? And we didn't just list, we listed we were like 40 out of a hundred. It was fantastic. I
Shanna (55:00):
Love it. I wish so much. We're going to have to do this again and just talk about book publishing and how all this came to be. I mean, I'm sure you have, you'll have to send over if you have other interviews or resources that you've shared about that. I just think so. Cool. Congratulations. That is a pinch me moment. Okay. Best advice or just really good advice that you've received.
Natalie (55:24):
Be really intentional with who you put in your inner circle. Their voices, their opinions of you will shape your opinion of yourself. So be really intentional.
Shanna (55:36):
I have so many follow up questions with that, I want to leave it last quick fire and then we'll send it off. What are you working on now or one resource that you would like to share?
Natalie (55:47):
Yes. Okay. So what I'm working on now is helping to make the largest impact in small business owners' lives through email marketing in a world where everyone's obsessed with social media and it is not actually paying their bills. So I'm very, very passionate about email and the revenue power of email and that hence why where I am, where I am, because I really think this is sort of a missing link for so many small business owners. And then a resource that I would love to share that'll be relevant all year long we rolled out with, so my team evaluated over 6.8 billion emails, billion with a B that were all sent in 2023, and we aggregated and anonymized that data and we pulled it into a report alongside other qualitative factors and community feedback. So it's like this beautiful blend of data meets intuition from the community to put together a 2024 small business marketing trends report.
(56:52):
And I would love all of you to get your hands on it because of all the things I've ever put out, this is one of the coolest and most data-driven pieces of content on the Flow desk side that we created just a few days ago. So I will make sure to get that link over to you so you can share it in the show notes. But it's just such a good free resource for anybody building a business that wants some of that. Again, like I said, we want to help small business. I want to give you whatever I can. And so market, we looked across the whole platform to see what we could take away.
Shanna (57:20):
Trends. Okay. Marketing trends 2024 edition.
Natalie (57:23):
Yeah,
Shanna (57:23):
We will put the link in the show notes. I'm so excited. And that's that science data brain of yours coming out. I love it. I can't wait to see it. We'll definitely share it. Okay, Natalie, let's send it off. I'm so sad. First of all, just thank you for being so open. Thank you for sharing the wonderful, the challenging. It's been a joy to spend time with you, and I just want to get together and catch up more. But yeah, thank you for just inner heart for this community and small businesses, so we're so grateful for you. Okay, let's look back graduating, starting your photography business, what would you tell yourself? Looking back now, just on day one of this journey,
Natalie (58:17):
I would tell myself to work hard at work worth doing and have faith in my own intuition to believe in myself and to never underestimate the power of being kind.
Shanna (58:35):
So perfect. I love it. Thanks, Natalie.
Natalie (58:39):
Thank you so much.
Shanna (58:40):
Hey, wildflower, you just finished another episode of Consider the Wildflowers, the podcast. Head over to consider the wildflowers podcast.com for show notes, resource links, and to learn how you can connect with Natalie to quote today's guest, never underestimate the power of being kind As always, thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.
